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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:32 pm 
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Furthermore I have some doubts about the 20% warscore-rule. As I understand it the rule is meant to be there so that countries who get themselves into unwinnable wars shall have a chance to peace out without losing too much, and for this purpose I think the rule is good. However it feels less optimal in a situation where a war between even sides have been going on for a long while but finally starts to tip over to one side. Currently the losing side can just surrender then and the winning side will probably not gain much despite perhaps investing a whole lot into the war. Sure the winning side could add war goals before the other side surrenders but sometimes that's not possible, like in the great war last session: I (Italy) personally had 50% war score vs France due to winning a huge battle but could still not add any war goals, maybe cause I had no war score vs Russia who was war leader. So despite making a pretty big investment into my defense vs France and despite our side having the advantage it was impossible for me to gain anything from the war since I could not add war goals. And even if I could I would have to talk to my allies first, perhaps negotiate a little about what war goals we should add, all the while fighting the war. It can be pretty tough to add the war goals before the other side surrenders when it's becoming clear you're winning.

I could propose some actual ideas on how to change the rules but I guess I'll hear if people think I have a point at all first.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:56 pm 
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I say that we change it to be different when you are fighting a great war, cause in great wars irl they had a lot of wargoals, and 20% isnt enough! You have to fix that.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:16 am 
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I noticed this while reading over the rules

"10. Transfer of money and states is allowed only after 1st session this will be done by admin before next session, one is allowed to make up to territorial transfers per session."


there is a typo here that makes this confusing

"one is allowed to make up to territorial transfers per session"

does not say how many transfers are allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:42 am 
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UP TO ONE

Thanks, didn't notice.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:24 am 
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We need a change to the coefficient rules to prevent gamey exploits. This is my recommendation. I think the logic is self-explanatory, but I've included a few reasons and examples below of why these changes are necessary.


2. The coefficient score limit will be 110 until 1880, 140 from 1880 till 1900 and no limits after 1900.
2a. The coefficient score limit applies a hard cap to individual wars.
2b. A player nation may not declare war on a defending player nation if doing so would cause either the attacking or defending nation over the limit.
2c. Allies of the attacking player may join up to the coefficient limit for the defending player nation.
2d. Allies of the defending player nation may join up the coefficient limit for the current era.
2e. Player nations may join in the defense of an ally at any time but are not subject to the protection of (2c) in the immediate war.
2f. Declaring war on a non-player sphereling will be treated as a declaration of war on the sphere leader and includes the defensive protection of both (2b) and (2c).
2g. Interventions in current wars by friendly player nations (status quo war goal) will be treated as called defensive allies and are thus not subject to the protections of (2b) and (2c).


reasons:
2a: The problem with coefficients as previously used is that it prevented players from taking part in wars they should logically be able to take part in, namely defensive wars. It also prevented defensive allies from joining wars based on completely unrelated concurrent wars. The major change is that called allies now have the option to exceed the limit; because of this, a hard cap is necessary for individual wars.
2b: This is the main restriction: You can't put yourself over the limit by declaring war, and you can't put the target over the limit by declaring war either.
2c: All player attackers together in the current war may not put the defending NATION over the limit. No other defenders (stated or unstated) are considered, as this was previously used to game the system. (e.g. this change prevents the situation where someone already at war joins in defense, and then none of the attacking allies can take part due to the defending ally's coefficient cap already being reached)
2d: In discretion, defense should have the advantage. If war is declared, the defense can call allies up to the limit without regard for the other wars the attacker may be in. prevents the very common gamey exploit where an attacker would leave just enough coefficient to declare war on a player and prevent any allies from being called.
2e: If you're called to war, then you join at your own discretion. Your personal coefficient limit doesn't apply.
2f: gamey exploit, no explanation needed
2g: see 2e


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:28 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:14 pm
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Gakumerasara wrote:
We need a change to the coefficient rules to prevent gamey exploits. This is my recommendation. I think the logic is self-explanatory, but I've included a few reasons and examples below of why these changes are necessary.


2. The coefficient score limit will be 110 until 1880, 140 from 1880 till 1900 and no limits after 1900.
2a. The coefficient score limit applies a hard cap to individual wars.
2b. A player nation may not declare war on a defending player nation if doing so would cause either the attacking or defending nation over the limit.
2c. Allies of the attacking player may join up to the coefficient limit for the defending player nation.
2d. Allies of the defending player nation may join up the coefficient limit for the current era.
2e. Player nations may join in the defense of an ally at any time but are not subject to the protection of (2c) in the immediate war.
2f. Declaring war on a non-player sphereling will be treated as a declaration of war on the sphere leader and includes the defensive protection of both (2b) and (2c).
2g. Interventions in current wars by friendly player nations (status quo war goal) will be treated as called defensive allies and are thus not subject to the protections of (2b) and (2c).


reasons:
2a: The problem with coefficients as previously used is that it prevented players from taking part in wars they should logically be able to take part in, namely defensive wars. It also prevented defensive allies from joining wars based on completely unrelated concurrent wars. The major change is that called allies now have the option to exceed the limit; because of this, a hard cap is necessary for individual wars.
2b: This is the main restriction: You can't put yourself over the limit by declaring war, and you can't put the target over the limit by declaring war either.
2c: All player attackers together in the current war may not put the defending NATION over the limit. No other defenders (stated or unstated) are considered, as this was previously used to game the system. (e.g. this change prevents the situation where someone already at war joins in defense, and then none of the attacking allies can take part due to the defending ally's coefficient cap already being reached)
2d: In discretion, defense should have the advantage. If war is declared, the defense can call allies up to the limit without regard for the other wars the attacker may be in. prevents the very common gamey exploit where an attacker would leave just enough coefficient to declare war on a player and prevent any allies from being called.
2e: If you're called to war, then you join at your own discretion. Your personal coefficient limit doesn't apply.
2f: gamey exploit, no explanation needed
2g: see 2e


I like this


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 2:55 am 
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Fucking Gaku destroying my hard won meta-game.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 3:46 am 
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Location: Serbia
I like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:05 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:13 pm
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Location: Belgrade,Serbia
Gakumerasara wrote:
We need a change to the coefficient rules to prevent gamey exploits. This is my recommendation. I think the logic is self-explanatory, but I've included a few reasons and examples below of why these changes are necessary.


2. The coefficient score limit will be 110 until 1880, 140 from 1880 till 1900 and no limits after 1900.
2a. The coefficient score limit applies a hard cap to individual wars.
2b. A player nation may not declare war on a defending player nation if doing so would cause either the attacking or defending nation over the limit.
2c. Allies of the attacking player may join up to the coefficient limit for the defending player nation.
2d. Allies of the defending player nation may join up the coefficient limit for the current era.
2e. Player nations may join in the defense of an ally at any time but are not subject to the protection of (2c) in the immediate war.
2f. Declaring war on a non-player sphereling will be treated as a declaration of war on the sphere leader and includes the defensive protection of both (2b) and (2c).
2g. Interventions in current wars by friendly player nations (status quo war goal) will be treated as called defensive allies and are thus not subject to the protections of (2b) and (2c).


reasons:
2a: The problem with coefficients as previously used is that it prevented players from taking part in wars they should logically be able to take part in, namely defensive wars. It also prevented defensive allies from joining wars based on completely unrelated concurrent wars. The major change is that called allies now have the option to exceed the limit; because of this, a hard cap is necessary for individual wars.
2b: This is the main restriction: You can't put yourself over the limit by declaring war, and you can't put the target over the limit by declaring war either.
2c: All player attackers together in the current war may not put the defending NATION over the limit. No other defenders (stated or unstated) are considered, as this was previously used to game the system. (e.g. this change prevents the situation where someone already at war joins in defense, and then none of the attacking allies can take part due to the defending ally's coefficient cap already being reached)
2d: In discretion, defense should have the advantage. If war is declared, the defense can call allies up to the limit without regard for the other wars the attacker may be in. prevents the very common gamey exploit where an attacker would leave just enough coefficient to declare war on a player and prevent any allies from being called.
2e: If you're called to war, then you join at your own discretion. Your personal coefficient limit doesn't apply.
2f: gamey exploit, no explanation needed
2g: see 2e



Let's see:

2a: I'm not entirely sure I understand what you want to say, can you give an example?
2b: Players already aren't allowed to declare war on defending side if defender would be fighting over the coef. limit.
2c: I'm not sure I understand this one? Would you add them to the coefficient even if they aren't in the war or what? We don't have fixed alliances so that wouldn't work.
2d: That is how it already works, isn't it?
2e: ....
2f: Yes, that could be added.
2g: Again ...

It seems that you are a little bit confused by this. First of all let me point out that I'm removing 140 coef. limit, from 1880th or from the point of discovery of a great war(if happens before 1880) there are no more coefficient rules.

However the part that seems to be confusing Gaku is that defenders can always willingly exceed 100 coefficient rule, (Say France is being attacked by 94 coefficient), if they wish they can during that war attack another party that isn't part of the ongoing war. In that new war France is treated as attacker and can still call allies to fill up 100 coefficient, HOWEVER the defender can also call his allies so France can in theory be at a war with 194 coefficient, due to it willingly attacking another enemy while fighting a war.

I think I've already explained that once but it's not bad thing to repeat it since we have many new players.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule book
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:05 am 
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Slayzer wrote:
Let's see:

2a: I'm not entirely sure I understand what you want to say, can you give an example?
2b: Players already aren't allowed to declare war on defending side if defender would be fighting over the coef. limit.
2c: I'm not sure I understand this one? Would you add them to the coefficient even if they aren't in the war or what? We don't have fixed alliances so that wouldn't work.
2d: That is how it already works, isn't it?
2e: ....
2f: Yes, that could be added.
2g: Again ...

It seems that you are a little bit confused by this. First of all let me point out that I'm removing 140 coef. limit, from 1880th or from the point of discovery of a great war(if happens before 1880) there are no more coefficient rules.

However the part that seems to be confusing Gaku is that defenders can always willingly exceed 100 coefficient rule, (Say France is being attacked by 94 coefficient), if they wish they can during that war attack another party that isn't part of the ongoing war. In that new war France is treated as attacker and can still call allies to fill up 100 coefficient, HOWEVER the defender can also call his allies so France can in theory be at a war with 194 coefficient, due to it willingly attacking another enemy while fighting a war.

I think I've already explained that once but it's not bad thing to repeat it since we have many new players.


First off, it clarifies the entire system, because there are a lot of unstated issues and sub-rules that people don't know about from reading the official rules; you can't sum it up in a single sentence without making it fodder for rules-lawyering. It also changes the way limits are determined. The part you're missing is that the "defender" for coeff purposes is ONLY the war target, the person war is declared on. No one else who's called in is considered, because allies join at their discretion.

There's a lot of stuff that happens before 1880.

2a. In your France example, the cap for each war is 100. This is simply a statement of that situation

2b. I rewrote the entire rule (#2, from page 1), which means that the obvious stuff has to be stated as well. There's nothing really changed here, though technically it could be shortened because the attacker going over 100 (due to multiple wars) isn't that big of a problem.

2c. As examples... If the defending nation is not at war, then the attackers can pile on 100. If the defender is at war with 80 coeff, they can only declare war with 20 or less. If the defender is already over 100, then war cannot be declared. The key here is that it only applies to the war target.
e.g. If the defending nation is not at war (100 allowed), and then someone who is at war jumps to their defense, the attacking side can still pile on 100, because only the war target is considered for coeff purposes.

2d. I'm not sure if you changed things in your last game, but previously, it was not.


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