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 Post subject: Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:05 am
Posts: 123
Due to a huge assortment of issues I am leaving the game.

Last Saturday we had more problems then probably every other week combined. Now naturally in Europa we run into these problems as the game progresses, but I feel like we handled our problems last session a lot worse in particular. I of course have to apologize and take my fair share of the blame on that.

I told everyone treaties would be handled properly for once. I had a vision this game of the gm's micro managing treaties in order to ensure the game stays healthy and reasonable. the other two gms did not exactly share my vision on this and very quickly this micro management was turned against. I can understand the philosophy behind wanting a hands off approach, trusting gm's can be problematic. However when I as Venice took advantage of the Ottomans using a treaty; the exact type of thing I wanted to avoid if we had stayed on course with micro managing treaties, hell broke loose far more than i anticipated (and I did anticipate hell breaking loose). We had players outright ignoring gm orders. We had players shouting over one another with name calling. We had me trying to take advantage of gm decisions in every way possible. We had another gm using every power he had in his grasp to bully me. These things I can live with, I have certainly seen them before. However as a whole they are draining, and I am all drained up.

I don't find Europa as fun as i once did. In fact, and this ultimately is the issue, I don't find Europa, overall, any fun. I love the game and it has its moments, but people take this game too personally. We all get caught up in the moment and none of us ever want to fall behind, but for christ sakes I think we as humans just can't handle this type of game. I don't know what it is that drives us to pretend this is real life in a sense but I do know that one of the fundamental problems with a game like europa is that all the players must be equally invested into the game in order to have the ideal game. The player willing to leave at a moments notice is a cancer on the game that if left unchecked will grow to kill it. Now let me be clear, I don't blame players for wanting to leave nor do i blame players who do not try as hard at playing the game as others. Not everyone has an equal amount of time to spend and if I worked a real job or had an actually difficult set of courses that required more time of my week, like hell would I be sitting around bored for four and a half hours every saturday (of all days) just to make others happy. Its really not any ones fault this is the case its just that this is how the game is and it ruins the game. Last time I quit Europa, about a month away from two years ago, I left because of these exact reasons. Internally I am debating whether or not i still want to try out my custom nations game idea I have had, but this version of Europa I am done with.

On the bright side however, my nation is probably the least important at this point. the gap i am leaving the game with should be fluidly filled without issue and the game should chug on just fine without me as a player. I recommend a new vote to fill my gm slot, however i believe (and otto you should probably confirm this) that Hobo would have been the next gm had any of us declined our spots. So take that as you will and goodbye.


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 Post subject: Re: Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:54 pm
Posts: 70
I feel like I left the game for the same reasons as you. I don't think Sneaky should have had any power to begin with. He acts way too emotionally and I don't agree with his decisions most of the time. So when I lost a war because Sneaky was a salty **** I really didn't want anything to do with the game anymore.

Here are some examples of the things I really hated:

-France got to double dip with manpower and money on start of last session. (Ending up not mattering, but it was annoying none the less).
-Hannover got his troops trapped in Parma and had military access revoked. When his troops continued to move through Austria (because the game doesn't update for this every day since it would cause lag) they got stuck eventually when the game checked to see if he had access. Those troops should have been deleted since we caught them in our land and revoked access through Austria. Instead you guys forced him to give access to Hannover again...
-Sneaky joined the war against France. This was after hours of talking to him and even asking if he'd join if the deal with Robie didn't go the way he wanted (and he said that the only situation he would defend France was if I broke truce with him). So, in the heat of the moment after getting fucked by Robie's treaty, he decides to join the war and even stays after we explain Prussia won't get anything in the war.
-I got coalition warred when I didn't want the province I was given yet. Austria instantly coalition wars me and takes money and removes my alliance with France. The solution here was to have me accept demand province back, losing prestige, and wait for my AE to tick down. So I get double fucked because someone else gave me a province in a war...
-We can look at save games...
-Diplomacy as a whole is cancer. Many people act entirely on emotion and don't do anything interesting.
-Sneaky banned Robie from the TeamSpeak like a petty child.
-Goatmeal and Sneaky, on several occasions, made decisions for the game without including Robie when he was in another channel.
-Castille wasn't protected for the entire session 2 after it was said he'd be protected meaning I couldn't turn on France when I wanted to. I didn't want France to have anymore of Castille but it was suddenly decided and not announced until after France declared war on Castille AI. So I lost all of session 2 diplomacy I wanted to do because I was under the impression Castille would be protected.


And from what Robie writes the session I left got much worse than this from the way people acted.

I do apologize for leaving in the moment, though, I could have waited the entire session but I had had enough. I had even told a couple people the day before the session started I didn't even feel like playing anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 293
Location: Serbia
-I agree with you on the point France shouldn't get stuff because he wasn't there for the session. I didn't get **** when I wasn't there and I even got war declared EVEN though I said I'm not coming. I tried finding a sub, someone canceled for being my sub so I had to be AI. France was AI and got ****. So I totally agree with you on the part people should just not get stuff.

-You're always gonna have games where people act based on their emotions. It's part of the game and you shouldn't even play the game if you don't wan that. Even the people who try not to act on emotions really hard are going to sometimes do so if they had a bad day, can't put up with someones **** etc. You didn't act emotionally in diplomacy but before you left you sure did so. You didn't even talk to Florence or me and you just unconditionally surrendered way too fast even though I didn't want you to because of the rebels in Aragon.
My point is that acting on your emotions is for sure not good most of the time, but it will happen because people are just like that.

-Sneaky acted way too harsh and emotional. But I can understand why, he got frustrated and in the heat of the moment he banned Rob and just was being an *******. But you have to understand this **** will happen. It's unfortunate it happens but it simply does.

-I dislike the GM **** too. People can way too often not be objective. Sometimes they COULD even just agree to always beat out the 3rd GM and just do what's best in their interest. I AM NOT SAYING THIS HAPPENED THIS GAME BUT IT IS A BIG POSSIBILITY. Even though you think you know people they can still be untrustworthy.
I frankly don't know how to fix this, you gotta depend on people being decent at their job.
A possible way too make it better imo is to actually have the GM's in the same room as the rest of the players. Do the TS thing where you only let 3 of them talk and if a lot of people are protesting their decision (like 60-70%) then they should consider changing their decision and take in consideration if they are correct. I hate that 3 (2) people can decide something and EVEN be incorrect but the decision still goes through because people SHOULD think they are objective and overall better at the game.

-You left without talking to your allies and asking them from approval ( you don't have to but be a good enough person to do this) to leave. I can understand you got pissed off and it happens but you should cool off for like 10-15min and then decide. This happens to the best of us so I understand why it happened to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:59 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:51 am
Posts: 78
Thank you for voicing your concerns. Please try to consider that there are always two sides to every issue and the GMs try to find the best solution. We will keep trying to do better as the game goes forward.

I still believe and hope that the vast majority of players in this session are enjoying themselves.

We will have a voice vote at the beginning of the next session to select a third GM. If needed, the vote can also be done annonymously. Please try to be on time on TS so that we can get the session underway with as few delays as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 10:38 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 04, 2015 11:04 pm
Posts: 57
Right, I got too emotional with Rob, I admit that and I apologize for it, I banned him and I should not have done that, for that I am truly sorry as I acted out of line. I should not have name called Rob like I did, I was an *** to him and I admit that without any other comment than I shouldn’t have done it and I was wrong and I wish I could go back and not ban him, but that isn’t an option, I overreacted and I can only learn from that. I hope Rob forgives me for the way I acted towards him during the session, but that is his final decision, not mine and I will respect it regardless.

Now with that said, I don’t care for the rest of the comments at large. France received no money last session and the manpower they got was roughly for the army the AI deleted.
-As for Hannover, I have no clue what you are on about, I was not consulted in regards to that issue.
- The coalition war I wont comment on as I don’t remember really being a part of the discussion, that was largely between Goat and Rob that resolved that, but I do agree that the end result is not something I would have supported when I read your side of the story.
- Personal preference.
- Again, personal opinion in regards to interesting, I completely disagree.
- Read above.
- We did, and several decisions were made without me knowing, I am fine with that, if anyone have a problem with the ruling they can contest it if they wish.
- No Castille wasn’t protected, which was a decision made by the GMs as a whole. That you lost your diplomacy sucks, but that was how it was as in the end it was decided that France had a point of contention on Spain and as such the protection didn’t cover that, which was unfortunate for you.

Now as for your comments about my actions, I acted to emotionally and I admit that, in regards to Rob, nothing else. You didn’t lose a war because I was salty, you lost a war because you hadn’t prepared and gathered enough allies in the wake of previous session. I joined the war on France’s side, sure Rob turning on me had a part to do with it, as I no longer knew where Europe stood. However, that being said, Rob was not the main reason I joined, the reason I joined was because Prussia joined on your side. This wasn’t about Prussia just getting land, this was about ending their involvement. That is why I offered to peace out together with Prussia which Guren declined due to wanting a 15 year peace. After that him and me made an agreement that neither of us would fight and stand down, as we both did, I did not fight in Western Europe or against your troops. This was about keeping Prussia out of the war, which when achieved I backed out, if this was about salt I would have kept fighting. I was not going to tell you ahead of time how many were against you, but I didn’t want them to be stopped, and until Prussia got involved, I didn’t either and I stopped being in the war the moment Prussia did. The reason you lost the war was simply because you were unprepared for the war and did not have support enough to see it through, you only lost due to your own shortfalls and shortcomings in terms of diplomacy and decision making. Do not blame me for your own fuckups, today I’m not blaming anyone but myself for being an idiot with the treaty over Egypt, I needed time to vent, I admit I went about it very poorly.

But overall Sothar, you acted the worst out of every single individual last session. This was the first war you lost and it was too much for you to handle, you rage quit, I acted out of anger and I completely in the wrong, but I admit that and I accept it and I do not blame anyone but myself for making that deal and banning Rob. I needed time to vent at Rob, but I regret how I acted now that I think back, it was very immature and wrong. That does however not excuse you leaving after losing your first war in this game, because for once it went against you, you had a strong nation and gave up completely because it did not go your way, you surrendered an entire war without any communication.

For better or worse, I stuck with the game and Rob stuck with the game, despite how pissed I was and how much Rob hated the session. You had no reason to leave and you threw a child’s tantrum akin to mine in immaturity.

Rob I respect your decision to leave and I hope you will reconsider next game, despite my rather poor reaction last Saturday and what I said in private, I do really enjoy playing and talking with you.

Edit: Yes I support the GM selection said by Goat.


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 Post subject: Re: Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:54 pm
Posts: 70
Sneakyflaps wrote:
- No Castille wasn’t protected, which was a decision made by the GMs as a whole. That you lost your diplomacy sucks, but that was how it was as in the end it was decided that France had a point of contention on Spain and as such the protection didn’t cover that, which was unfortunate for you.


These seem to just be arbitrarily handed out. It was session 2 after a single, surprise war followed by another to press our advantage. What exactly constitutes contention? It was two wars of opportunity. Does opportunity count as contention?

Sneakyflaps wrote:
Do not blame me for your own fuckups, today I’m not blaming anyone but myself for being an idiot with the treaty over Egypt, I needed time to vent, I admit I went about it very poorly.


Remove your involvement from the war and Goatmeal wouldn't have joined to secure the western front. Prussia would have pressured the east and I would have won and probably still left the game over how you treated Rob. I did, in fact, lose the war because you were salty and you even said something along the lines of "Sothar is going to be pissed, but I'm mad so I'm joining."

Ending Prussian involvement seems a bit of a ridiculous goal. You just wasted your time to do what? Make sure Prussia doesn't get looting and occupation money?

Sneakyflaps wrote:
But overall Sothar, you acted the worst out of every single individual last session. This was the first war you lost and it was too much for you to handle, you rage quit, I acted out of anger and I completely in the wrong, but I admit that and I accept it and I do not blame anyone but myself for making that deal and banning Rob. I needed time to vent at Rob, but I regret how I acted now that I think back, it was very immature and wrong. That does however not excuse you leaving after losing your first war in this game, because for once it went against you, you had a strong nation and gave up completely because it did not go your way, you surrendered an entire war without any communication.


I didn't leave because I lost the war. Well, I suppose it certainly didn't help how I felt. But go ahead and ask Hobo (and I think you and Goatmeal heard me say it too) that I said I was thinking about leaving the day before session 3. The fact that I left mid-session makes me a child? Come on. That's kinda stupid to say. I hit the surrender button because I was going to go bankrupt the next month. Which I said to my allies. Would you prefer I let myself go bankrupt, get broken by Breton rebels, and let Castille and Florence be sieged down too before I accepted peace? I saved myself as much as I could by hitting that button exactly when I did. When you lose 100% WS the game pays up a bunch of your loans, instead of going bankrupt and losing my Breton provinces too.

I left because GM decisions and your salt. Losing the war didn't put me in any better mood. But would sitting in TS and planning to leave as soon as the session was over be any better? I had already pretty much decided I wanted to leave before this session started but tried to stick out this session instead of leaving last.

Sneakyflaps wrote:
For better or worse, I stuck with the game and Rob stuck with the game, despite how pissed I was and how much Rob hated the session. You had no reason to leave and you threw a child’s tantrum akin to mine in immaturity.


I had no reason to leave? Because my nation was doing well I'm bound to a game I wasn't even having fun with last session when I was doing better. That's so ridiculous to say. I don't know how I threw a tantrum either. Was I screaming at people in TS? I just said I was going to leave after the peace deal. I didn't do anything but leave the game. How exactly is that a tantrum?

Sneakyflaps wrote:
Rob I respect your decision to leave and I hope you will reconsider next game, despite my rather poor reaction last Saturday and what I said in private, I do really enjoy playing and talking with you.


I have no personal issues with you. I just really disliked the GM decisions made and didn't appreciate the way you reacted to Robie fucking you. I had absolutely no fun starting in session 2. Session 3 was made only slightly bearable because I won a big war.


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 Post subject: Re: Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:02 am
Posts: 18
-I got coalition warred when I didn't want the province I was given yet. Austria instantly coalition wars me and takes money and removes my alliance with France. The solution here was to have me accept demand province back, losing prestige, and wait for my AE to tick down. So I get double fucked because someone else gave me a province in a war...

I dont have an oppinion on most of the **** that happened, except for the Rob treaty thingy, where i was pretty vocal on TS. Making a treaty that you intend to break is ok, but trying to use game mechanics to acuse the other player of not maintaining the guarantee was just too much to keep silent about. Sneaky overreacted, Rob was just trying to be his sneaky self.

But i do want to talk about the above quote. This thing here is banned in most games. You cannot give land to the AI that he does not want in peace, it has to be land that he specifically desires so basically you cant just randomly coalition him by being a WL. Basically if this was allowed, no one could on good faith join a war where he is not WL, because he can get fed land and then coalitioned and rekt. A player has to always be asked what he wants in a peace and never be forced to take **** he does not want, exactly as you cannot force a player on the losing side to give up **** he doesnt want to give up. So if this happened i consider Burgundy was pretty royally fucked up by whoever gave him **** to launch a coalition on him and GM's should have done something about this blatant abuse. End of rant.


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 Post subject: Re: Resignation
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:18 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:04 pm
Posts: 293
Location: Serbia
Remember ptz, preach and breach


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 Post subject: Re: Resignation
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:17 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:00 am
Posts: 29
No justice no peace.


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