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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:56 pm 
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Did another test of 10 dreadnought vs 10 dreadnought. Turns out even dreadnoughts have trouble sinking other dreadnoughts due to the way hull works. Out of 3 trials, one ended with 0 losses on both sides before one side ran out of org and had to retreat, and the other 2 trials only 1 dreadnought deed on either side before the battle ended. A dreadnought firing on another dreadnought deals between 0.6-2.2 strength damage.

The reason why even dreadnoughts do no strength damage to other dreadnoughts is because hull reduces damage by a %. I'm not exactly sure how the damage calculation is done, but just take a look at this screenshot:

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This is a picture of a dreadnought targeting a frigate. If the UI is to be believed, a frigate with a hull of 4 will divide incoming damage by 4. This seems to line up with my results, because when I rolled a 0 it would take my dreadnoughts 4 hits to kill a frigate. 123 attack divided by 4 = 30, so 4 hits will sink a frigate. I'm guessing the dice rolls act as a multiplier to this, with a 9 being at least a 4x multiplier because the frigates would get sunk in 1 hit whenever I rolled a 9.

The only window for a dreadnought to get sunk in Slayzer mod is when its org drops to 0 and it starts to retreat, it takes several days to get outside of firing range from enemy ships. You either need multiple dreadnoughts targeting it during this retreat to do enough damage to sink it, or one dreadnought scoring a lucky critical hit. No amount of ironclads/raiders/frigates in my tests could kill a dreadnought because slayzer essentially made all their attacks over 300% less effective (vanilla dreadnoughts have hull of 80, slayzer dreadnoughts have 250). Ships generally take more org damage than strength damage and when their org gets to 0 they withdraw from the battle. If they successfully withdraw they can't be sunk for the remainder of the battle. Since everything does so little damage to dreadnoughts, they will have around 50% strength or more when they run out of org. Its hard for anything to do 50 strength damage to a dreadnought before it is able to escape the firing line and withdraw.


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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2015 2:35 pm
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And what could fix this problem? increase dramatically attack done by capital ships?


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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 7:17 pm 
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DuroSVK wrote:
And what could fix this problem? increase dramatically attack done by capital ships?





The solution is to go back to vanilla navies


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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:34 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 1:13 pm
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Location: Belgrade,Serbia
I would like to do some testing on my own but this seems ok to me, clearly Hull has to go down to 100 or 95 which means all other ships need to be scaled down.

Key thing Guren is missing here is that for this version of the mod(5.2) I only focused on heavy ship changes. Right now I'm happy with the outcome aside from some obviously broken things that will be fixed(like Dreadnoughts being almost unsinkable etc). I just need to tweek stats on early game ships and game will be perfectly balanced.


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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 7:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:56 pm
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While digging through the defines.lua I noticed that you can mod the max # of ships that can target one ship at a time. It is currently set to 6 except for a few bugged cases. Lowering this value would make frigate/raider spam useless against lategame capitals. It also turns out that ships with 0 org also take twice the strength damage and don't automatically retreat when they have low org, instead there's a 7% chance per hour that they start to retreat, and when they start to retreat it still takes time. All of these values can be modified too.


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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:08 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:57 pm
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Location: texas
well you shouldn't make wooden ships worthless don't they already deal less damage or no?


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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:35 am 
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The problem is in lategame, doesn't matter what kind of ships you have, as long as you have higher forcelimit you win which makes naval combat very boring.


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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 2:58 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 29, 2015 7:57 pm
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Slayzer wrote:
The problem is in lategame, doesn't matter what kind of ships you have, as long as you have higher forcelimit you win which makes naval combat very boring.


don't feel bad stellaris has same problem


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 Post subject: Re: Navies are completely broken in this mod, and here's why
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2016 7:19 am 
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Slayzer wrote:
The problem is in lategame, doesn't matter what kind of ships you have, as long as you have higher forcelimit you win which makes naval combat very boring.



HOW CAN YOU MAKE THIS ARGUMENT WITH A STRAIGHT FACE.


Like.. wtf.


You're entirely advocating for late game ships to trump all, which means higher force limit = win.


The only situation where a lower force limit can win is in Vanilla with frigates. In your mod frigates absolutely dumpster battleships/dreads, and cruisers beat frigates.


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