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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 11:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:10 am
Posts: 86
[quote="JozyAltidore"]To be clear, your mod is zero mod right?

I'm good with like 10% for #1, the limiting factor on Raj should be factories not manpower. 20% is a lot though, especially considering UK can recruit using Raj manpower.

#2 is fine as long as it's nothing dumb

#3 absolutely, but light tank/TD should be almost no bonus, medium some bonus, heavy a lot of bonus, and super heavy should be a **** ton. Tank destroyer should also have more of a bonus in each category than the normal variant of the tank.

#4 I agree, but you're forgetting that mech inf. baseline has 60 org while med armor. baseline has 10 org. So it's more of a comparison mech infantry vs motorized than it is mech infantry vs med armor. In which case mech is still pretty ****. The changes I would make here:
Mech 1: Speed 10 instead of 8, Cost 7 instead of 12.
Mech 2: Cost 9 instead of 13
Mech 3: Cost 11 instead of 14

#5 I'm against, it just nerfs synths which are already pretty **** for everyone other than Germany. Germany doesn't need another nerf.

#6 I'm against too, mainly because it's just gonna clutter up the tech screens and if everyone already has all the 1944 tech's then that's fine, it becomes more of an army game than a tech game at that point which I'm ok with.

Also want to see sahara impassable become part of the base mod, except that it shouldn't ever be narrower than 3 provinces across so that we don't need house rules on fort spamming like we have in the current game.


No my mod is called Improved Multiplayer Experience Mod, Zero mod is Sothars, though he has incorporated some elements of my mod.

1. Yea I could tune it down to 10%, it wouldn't be that off in regards to historical authenticity either (A little underestimated, whereas mine is a little overestimated)

2. I basically took the resources added in Zero mod and moved them around more historically. Essentially makes French Africa better and Burma, and the Congo worse.

3. That's more or less what I've done.

4. I haven't changed mechs speed, but its cost is at the levels you suggest in my mod currently. In regards to changing its speed I'm uncertain how that would affect game balance so I'll need to look into it.

5. The change was basically +100 day research time (either tech is 150 days vs vanilla 200 days) and if anything it is a pure buff to synthetics. Rubber is by far the biggest resource shortage and being able to specifically build Rubber is huge (both buildings give +7 of their respective resources). Furthermore as Germany I'm far more likely to have surplus Oil than Rubber, thus building Synthetic Rubber refineries would be a huge buff.

6. I can post a screen shot if you want, but Its not particularly cluttered the vanilla interface had more than enough room to add them.

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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:06 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:00 am
Posts: 24
Oh I didn't realize the way you were changing synths. That's probably fine.

#6 I'm pretty ambivalent towards, either one works.


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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:10 am
Posts: 86
Im going to post here now regarding mod questions criticisms so as to not clutter the sign up thread.

Economic:
Normalize all civilian construction modifiers (ie modifiers moved closer to vanilla, but will not overshoot vanilla values)

Civilian Economy +35% civilian factory speed (-30% to +5%) the allies are underpowered and will always lose to a well planned axis so this is warranted IMO. You still get more civilian output from higher mobilization laws.

Early Mobilization +10% civilian factory speed (-10% to 0%) same reason as above

Partial mobilization unchanged

War Economy +5% synthetic rubber speed +5% synthetic oil speed

Total Economic Mobilization +10% factory output +10% synthetic rubber and oil speed -2% recruitable population

tl:dr Early Mobilization and Civilian Economy will be getting only a slight increase from Vanilla instead of my original larger increase.


Units:
Heavy Recon Will be disabled until I can figure out how to make it mutually exclusive with regular recon.

Militia will stay as they are pretty garbage and are only used to make the start more realistic (Colonial units being Militia, Italy getting their CCNN battalions)

Flamethrowers will stay as I think they are needed to help fight forts and keep the war mobile. Im sure we can all agree a stalemate with no way to break it is the least fun way to play Hoi4. If it turns out Flamethrowers are spammed by everyone and their mother they can get nerfed, but I don't think they will, artillery is more cost effective unless your attacking fortifications.

Armoured Cars will stay but, without heavy recon I dont imagine anyone will use them, you need a lot of AC's to make a decent template (a 5 armour 5 motorized templates needs 10 AC battalions to make combat width) and they are about as combat effective as the equivalent width of light tanks. Considering per width they are the same price I think that is ok. I doubt anyone will use them heavily considering they are a different Battalion type, perhaps to fill out motorized divisions or sth, but not a primary unit.

tl:dr I'm keeping most units as they add flexibility without breaking anything in my tests and holo's tests. Baring Heavy Recon which was marked as problematic (keep in mind I added that unit during Christmas break) the rest will be interesting tools to see. Generally speaking they are not line units, but tools for certain tasks which I think the game lacked assets to deal with.

Convoy's
All reverted, not work as intended I just forgot to do it before it was mentioned.

Sothar's contributions
His impassable Sahara will be added in and his tweaks to the minor focus tree will also be added in.


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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 4:04 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:00 am
Posts: 24
I'm not playing if you change econ laws. I fundamentally disagree with your opinion that game is tilted in axis's favor. Allies should win a game with even skill on each side.

I think adding flamethrowers and armored cars are dumb too and would 100% much rather play a game without them, but can live if they're in the mod.


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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:01 pm
Posts: 32
so youre saying its already too stacked in the allied favour currently?


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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 6:33 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:10 am
Posts: 86
JozyAltidore wrote:
I'm not playing if you change econ laws. I fundamentally disagree with your opinion that game is tilted in axis's favor. Allies should win a game with even skill on each side.

I think adding flamethrowers and armored cars are dumb too and would 100% much rather play a game without them, but can live if they're in the mod.


I have the opposite experience in that the allies always lose when the teams are equally skilled. In fact the only game I recall seeing the allies win was the game that it was you and Sothar (as Axis) vs like 5 people. Furthermore, every game I've been in where the axis have tried, they have succeeded in Sealion (mostly due to broken vanilla mechanics). While, it is possible for the UK to stop Sealion, it basically involves them giving up the rest of the world to do so and basically gives the Axis a freehand in invading the USSR as they have no opposition elsewhere until the USA joins in. But, if your completely set on not playing with the econ changes I can revert them, though I will take no blame if the game is tilted towards the axis.

In regards to Flamethrowers/Armoured Cars why do you think they are dumb? I'm open to critique, but just saying something is dumb is useless to me. Both units address issue in the game which allow players to counter things like Fort Lines. In Vanilla, Fort's are basically uncounterable unless you have 4:1 advantage or so, which is basically impossible to achieve in game. Instead of nerfing forts, which I'm not a fan of, as it makes low level forts basically useless while having high level forts still being hard to deal with, I added Flamethrowers which give you options to deal with forts, but is not something that should be in every division unless you have a very large industry.

Armoured cars have less utility, and I wouldn't have added them by themselves (Originally added for Heavy Recon), but since I already did the work to add them and they are no more powerful than the equivalent width of light tanks I see no reason to remove them.

Edit: I understand the hesitation in using something that changes the gameplay over just fixing issues with gameplay (zero mod for example mostly fixes issues), but I've been doing mods like this for ~5 years now so I'm getting pretty good at the fine tuning. At least, in the sense that I haven't had any real complaints about balance, a few bugs, a few things not WAI, but nothing that has broken the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:09 am 
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Posts: 62
Otto von Saxony wrote:
I have the opposite experience in that the allies always lose when the teams are equally skilled. In fact the only game I recall seeing the allies win was the game that it was you and Sothar (as Axis) vs like 5 people. Furthermore, every game I've been in where the axis have tried, they have succeeded in Sealion (mostly due to broken vanilla mechanics). While, it is possible for the UK to stop Sealion, it basically involves them giving up the rest of the world to do so and basically gives the Axis a freehand in invading the USSR as they have no opposition elsewhere until the USA joins in. But, if your completely set on not playing with the econ changes I can revert them, though I will take no blame if the game is tilted towards the axis.

In regards to Flamethrowers/Armoured Cars why do you think they are dumb? I'm open to critique, but just saying something is dumb is useless to me. Both units address issue in the game which allow players to counter things like Fort Lines. In Vanilla, Fort's are basically uncounterable unless you have 4:1 advantage or so, which is basically impossible to achieve in game. Instead of nerfing forts, which I'm not a fan of, as it makes low level forts basically useless while having high level forts still being hard to deal with, I added Flamethrowers which give you options to deal with forts, but is not something that should be in every division unless you have a very large industry.

Armoured cars have less utility, and I wouldn't have added them by themselves (Originally added for Heavy Recon), but since I already did the work to add them and they are no more powerful than the equivalent width of light tanks I see no reason to remove them.

Edit: I understand the hesitation in using something that changes the gameplay over just fixing issues with gameplay (zero mod for example mostly fixes issues), but I've been doing mods like this for ~5 years now so I'm getting pretty good at the fine tuning. At least, in the sense that I haven't had any real complaints about balance, a few bugs, a few things not WAI, but nothing that has broken the game.


So I think he is on point with flamethrowers being a company. I don't think they were ever used as widely as being an entire support company in a division (Not 100% on that, though). So it's more a flavor issue rather than a balance issue, I think.

Furthermore, the idea is to have more minors on Comintern/Allies than on the Axis. So if there were only one minor player it would be placed on Comintern/Allies before the Axis. I'm not 100% certain if that will resolve the issue of the game being Axis tilted, but it should help.


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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:10 am
Posts: 86
Sothar wrote:
Otto von Saxony wrote:
I have the opposite experience in that the allies always lose when the teams are equally skilled. In fact the only game I recall seeing the allies win was the game that it was you and Sothar (as Axis) vs like 5 people. Furthermore, every game I've been in where the axis have tried, they have succeeded in Sealion (mostly due to broken vanilla mechanics). While, it is possible for the UK to stop Sealion, it basically involves them giving up the rest of the world to do so and basically gives the Axis a freehand in invading the USSR as they have no opposition elsewhere until the USA joins in. But, if your completely set on not playing with the econ changes I can revert them, though I will take no blame if the game is tilted towards the axis.

In regards to Flamethrowers/Armoured Cars why do you think they are dumb? I'm open to critique, but just saying something is dumb is useless to me. Both units address issue in the game which allow players to counter things like Fort Lines. In Vanilla, Fort's are basically uncounterable unless you have 4:1 advantage or so, which is basically impossible to achieve in game. Instead of nerfing forts, which I'm not a fan of, as it makes low level forts basically useless while having high level forts still being hard to deal with, I added Flamethrowers which give you options to deal with forts, but is not something that should be in every division unless you have a very large industry.

Armoured cars have less utility, and I wouldn't have added them by themselves (Originally added for Heavy Recon), but since I already did the work to add them and they are no more powerful than the equivalent width of light tanks I see no reason to remove them.

Edit: I understand the hesitation in using something that changes the gameplay over just fixing issues with gameplay (zero mod for example mostly fixes issues), but I've been doing mods like this for ~5 years now so I'm getting pretty good at the fine tuning. At least, in the sense that I haven't had any real complaints about balance, a few bugs, a few things not WAI, but nothing that has broken the game.


So I think he is on point with flamethrowers being a company. I don't think they were ever used as widely as being an entire support company in a division (Not 100% on that, though). So it's more a flavor issue rather than a balance issue, I think.

Furthermore, the idea is to have more minors on Comintern/Allies than on the Axis. So if there were only one minor player it would be placed on Comintern/Allies before the Axis. I'm not 100% certain if that will resolve the issue of the game being Axis tilted, but it should help.


The unit is 300 man support company with 24 flamethrowers based on the Italian Alpini flamethrower deployment, note no other Italian units used flamethrowers extensively. USA marine divisions also used them extensively as well in their Special Weapons battalions, though I'm unsure how many weapons were specifically deployed. The Germans also used them extensively in Pioneer companies when they were assaulting fortifications or cities. The Russians also used them extensively, but I'm unsure on their deployment.

Over all I think there is enough historical use of it on mass(24 in a division is mass to me) for the company to exist. Ideally it would be a special flag you could give engineer battalions, but seeing as that is impossible I made a new company type to do this.

Also my original comment still stand, saying why you have a grievance is important if you want me (or anyone who is making a game/mod) to understand the issue.


We would need more players if we were to do that. Right now I think we just have enough to fill the majors (I have maybe one or two more people I can talk to but, if they cant make it im out.)


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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:14 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 9:46 pm
Posts: 7
One thing that you have to remember is that hoi4 doesn't represent everything directly. The USA extensively used bazooka support but there isn't a rocket launcher support company, it's represented as a tech that gives infantry more hard attack and piercing. Flamethrowers are debatably represented in the support weapons tech, which already improves breakthrough. Armored cars are pretty much the same thing as mechanized infantry.


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 Post subject: Re: Future Mod Inclusions
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 3:05 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:10 am
Posts: 86
Supernova wrote:
One thing that you have to remember is that hoi4 doesn't represent everything directly. The USA extensively used bazooka support but there isn't a rocket launcher support company, it's represented as a tech that gives infantry more hard attack and piercing. Flamethrowers are debatably represented in the support weapons tech, which already improves breakthrough. Armored cars are pretty much the same thing as mechanized infantry.


I disagree with flamethrowers, IRL they were only used in specialist units and not used in every divisions. So they cannot be covered in Support Weapons. Furthermore, Support Weapons tech effects infantry battalions and infantry battalions never deployed flamethrowers but specialist units like the aforestated Germany Pioneers or American Special Weapons companies.

Armoured Cars were added for Heavy Recon, which is also clearly not in recon as well the stats are indicative of an infantry unit not an armour car unit. I added the line Battalion because why not the equipment already exists. Also Mechanized Infantry are very clearly infantry in APC and later in IFV,not infantry who have armoured cars.


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