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 Post subject: Re: Current Suggestions
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 6:30 am 
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Posts: 62
I don't know you if you want special nation rules but I'd really like something solid and set int stone about Japan.

Western Trade modifier and associated events/decision are really *** backwards. I really think we should play with a mod or have a special rule for them.
As of right now, Japan gets an event which reduces missionary strength by 5%. The only requirement for this is to have been seen by a westerner. So if a Japanese player were to colonize Mexico suddenly catholic missionaries are lining up in Japan to prevent you from converting the Nahuatl in Mexico or Confucians in China, etc.

The only way to remove this malus is the privilege of paying 200 of each monarch power and functionally becoming a horde. Hordes get -15% institution spread and so does Japan with the Sakoku law decision.

This isn't really fair and no other nation is FORCED to take such a ridiculous malus with no alternative ways out. It has zero regard for context and has zero regard for making any sense.

So I'd really like Western Trade to be removable by save edit for free under certain conditions.
Any of the following:

-Be a Great Power
-Have Colonialism institution and a colonial nation in North/South America
-Colonialism spawned in Japan
-Japan is united and owns at least 250 development outside Japan proper
-Japan converts to a Christian faith (It was removed for Zerohon in one game under this condition)

Or any solution really. It's just a frustrating experience to play Japan with a forced pseudo-horde modifier. Japan was forced to close its borders because it was divided and could not suffer more outside intrusion. A united and flourishing Japan would not close its borders over foreign missionaries.


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 Post subject: Re: Current Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Posts: 57
It is an annoying event to deal with, as for the suggestions you propose then only really: -Japan converts to a Christian faith (It was removed for Zerohon in one game under this condition). Has any good sense behind it, though I would change it to just having like 80% or any other number of religious unity, instead of it just being catholic. If it should come free or you should pay something I am not entirely sure, as there are events for other nations where you have to use monarch points to boost stability to get out/avoid it.


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 Post subject: Re: Current Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:51 am
Posts: 78
I'm perfectly fine with removing the western influence tag if Japan converts to Catholic and stays Catholic (at least for some amount of time...no converting twice just to remove the malus).

If Japan chooses to stay Shinto they have to use the decision...it is really not that painful considering you are one of the premier military powers and have a great military religion on top of it. The permanent malus of -15% institution spread is almost meaningless. Plus, every single ruler will have the event to choose between follow or question Sakoku and this choice basically gives you either free missionary strength and unrest reduction, or 5% admin tech reduction for a cost of 1 higher unrest. Overall the Sakoku decision is pretty harmless other than 200/200/200 cost...which could be justified by simply saying you get the privilege of not starting with a moron 0/0/0 ruler like some other countries do.


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 Post subject: Re: Current Suggestions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:14 am 
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goatmeal wrote:
The permanent malus of -15% institution spread is almost meaningless.


I would like you to play a horde and never reform your government, or play Japan that colonizes the new world and Western Trade triggers in 1520. The larger you get, the more painful it becomes to ever embrace an institution even after investing into a province. It's not meaningless at all otherwise all horde players would never bother to reform since you get 5% discipline (100 Horde Unity), 10/20/30% manpower, 10/20/30% force-limits, and -50% reinforcement costs from being an unreformed horde.

And with all those really great modifiers name a single player in our MP games that chooses to remain unreformed. While Horde Unity isn't the best government currency to deal with, the tipping point is the very annoying 15% malus towards institution spread especially in a large nation.


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 Post subject: Re: Current Suggestions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:43 am 
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The reason you reform your government as a horde is because yearly unity decay scales with development. At one point you cant war fast enough to keep it up and below 50 you get a linear discipline penalty up to -5%.

The 15% slower spread isn't literally meaningless, you are correct. What I mean is it is not game ending, especially for a powerful nation like Japan. Usually you can wait out the added few years needed to get the 10% development. After that, it's merely a matter of having to take out a larger loan than a nation without the spread malus may have had to take. I don't see that as a cause for special treatment. And again, you can basically say the permanent effect is +2 missionary strength, -5% admin tech cost, -15% institution spread if your leader always questions. That's not exactly unbearable.


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 Post subject: Re: Current Suggestions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:36 am 
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goatmeal wrote:
The 15% slower spread isn't literally meaningless, you are correct. What I mean is it is not game ending, especially for a powerful nation like Japan. Usually you can wait out the added few years needed to get the 10% development. After that, it's merely a matter of having to take out a larger loan than a nation without the spread malus may have had to take. I don't see that as a cause for special treatment. And again, you can basically say the permanent effect is +2 missionary strength, -5% admin tech cost, -15% institution spread if your leader always questions. That's not exactly unbearable.


The whole modifier makes no sense to even be added to Japan. How is it "special treatment" when there is an event and associate modifier/decision that just exist to enforce an event in history. The difference between this and other modifiers in the game is that it's permanent with no alternate solutions. The game just says "here you go Japan because your tag is JAP and some westerner saw you take this modifier for the rest of the game." If there were a solution, like every other DHE or historical modifiers (see Elective Monarchy), none of this would be a problem. There are no solutions in-game. So I'm suggesting an out of game solution when Paradox refuses to create an in-game one. If you don't like the solutions, then suggest some better ones. It's really ridiculous to claim Japan is getting "special treatment" when they're literally the of the few, if not only, nation which has to take a permanent modifier, which is mostly negative, for the rest of the campaign with no solution.


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 Post subject: Re: Current Suggestions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:23 am 
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[quote="goatmeal"]I'm perfectly fine with removing the western influence tag if Japan converts to Catholic and stays Catholic...


See Goat agree with you, mostly, tags being punished for being tags is nothing new not every country is equal, some have the shittiest NI's Some start with no dev, Hell I'd take japanese Ideas and western influences over bengalese Ideas any day of the weak.

Western influences also comes at a time when spread hardly matters any more, colonialism should be embraced by then and only the printing press is left to spread trough your country (the last 3 esentially just spawn across the empire)

Other tag specific **** yous similar to japans:
England: War of the roses/English civil war/bcrap ruler
Castile: **** ruler
Sweden: Dake wars
Ottoman: janessary decadence
Ming: Celestial Govt
Any 3 dev opm.. well starts 200 dev behind

If enacting shakoku law.
Japan has two perfectly adequate way to go:
Choose Humanist Ideas ann stay with western Influences get that sweet 3% mil tech reduction,

Or enact the sakoku law which really dosen't hurt that much to embrace institutions, just go religious Ideas and the tolerance of heathens does not matter anymore.

Still I find it reasonable to say that maybe for an upfront cost you might be allowed to get rid of that modifier like goat suggested if you think that is worth it.

Switching away from hordes comes for many reasons spread of institutions is not one of them. Better reasons include: to get rid of the autonomy floor (really hurts with states and their innate cost), To get rid of the quickly decaying Horde Unity, and to no longer have to raze your potential lands in order to keep horde unity up (quality of lands is more important than quantity of land).

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 Post subject: Re: Current Suggestions
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Posts: 86
[quote="NoOnes"]
See Goat agree with you, mostly, tags being punished for being tags is nothing new not every country is equal, some have the shittiest NI's Some start with no dev, Hell I'd take japanese Ideas and western influences over bengalese Ideas any day of the weak.


Bengal is one of the subpar Indian states so that's a bad example. You only played them last game because they were the only viable (read large enough to matter) nation left.

Quote:
Western influences also comes at a time when spread hardly matters any more, colonialism should be embraced by then and only the printing press is left to spread trough your country (the last 3 esentially just spawn across the empire)


I agree here, reneissance/colonialism are the two hard ones to get. Printing press is annoying but as Japan you can just become protestant and get easy spread from that.

Quote:
Other tag specific **** yous similar to japans:
England: War of the roses/English civil war/bcrap ruler


War of the roses is amazing, it almost always gives you an above average ruler and frankly it is an easy to end and insignificant civil war. It is only an issue if you A) **** up, or b) try to fight France.

English Civil War is more annoying but I've never seen it be a problem.

Quote:
Castile: **** ruler


Luckily disinherot/abdicate are a thing and doing so is actually optimal anyways for Castile as it gives you a female/regency faster for Iberian wedding. Additionally any **** you thing gives is off set by the free 500 developed you can get from Iberian wedding.

Quote:
Sweden: Dake wars

I've never had this. I play Sweden alot as well.

Quote:
Ottoman: janessary decadence


With the harem these days it's hard to even get Janissaries decadence, and if you get it, all that is needed is a single button press and it's gone forever. In otherwords counterplay/options.

Quote:
Ming: Celestial Govt


Sure, but Ming is still the strongest tag in the game. At the start at least.

Quote:
Any 3 dev opm.. well starts 200 dev behind


Nobody would play an opm and expect to be relevant ever so bad example.

Quote:
If enacting shakoku law.
Japan has two perfectly adequate way to go:
Choose Humanist Ideas ann stay with western Influences get that sweet 3% mil tech reduction,

Or enact the sakoku law which really dosen't hurt that much to embrace institutions, just go religious Ideas and the tolerance of heathens does not matter anymore.

Still I find it reasonable to say that maybe for an upfront cost you might be allowed to get rid of that modifier like goat suggested if you think that is worth it.


I generally agree, but I don't think you should have to pay anything if you convert religions. Sakoku law was to stop Christianity from spreading (among a few other things but this was the specific cause), and being Christian that doesn't make sense.

Quote:
Switching away from hordes comes for many reasons spread of institutions is not one of them. Better reasons include: to get rid of the autonomy floor (really hurts with states and their innate cost), To get rid of the quickly decaying Horde Unity, and to no longer have to raze your potential lands in order to keep horde unity up (quality of lands is more important than quantity of land).


I agree here, an to add an additional point razing gets worse every mil tech you get which means you have to raze more every tech level to maintain your horse unity at the current developed, let alone when you add expansion on top of that.

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